Most Active Speakers 2023

Sessionize proudly presents the list of the most active speakers in the year 2023!

  • 759 speakers
  • Auto-generated
Bob Fornal

Bob Fornal

Microsoft MVP and Torc Ambassador with a focus on Web Development: JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS, SVG, Angular, React, React-Native, Vue, and Ionic. I commonly speak about Cloud CI/CD, Quality Engineering, Best Practices, and Front-End Technologies.

* Owner of Code Squid, LLC.
* Senior Solutions Developer II (Front-End) at Leading EDJE, Inc.

"Learning from my mistakes over the decades, I feel that I have become a solid programmer." -- Me

Microsoft MVP and Torc Ambassador with a focus on Web Development: JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS, SVG, Angular, React, React-Native, Vue, and Ionic. I commonly speak about Cloud CI/CD, Quality Engineering, Best Practices, and Front-End Technologies. ... Show more

Kevin Feasel

Kevin Feasel

Kevin Feasel is a Microsoft Data Platform MVP and Proprietor of Catallaxy Services, LLC, where he specializes in data analytics with T-SQL and R, forcing Spark clusters to do his bidding, fighting with Kafka, and pulling rabbits out of hats on demand. He is the lead contributor to Curated SQL (https://curatedsql.com), president of the Triangle Area SQL Server Users Group (https://www.meetup.com/tripass), and author of PolyBase Revealed (https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484254608) and Finding Ghosts in Your Data (https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4842-8870-2). When not traveling around for presentations, Kevin lives in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Kevin Feasel is a Microsoft Data Platform MVP and Proprietor of Catallaxy Services, LLC, where he specializes in data analytics with T-SQL and R, forcing Spark clusters to do his bidding, fighting with Kafka, and pulling rabbits out of hats on demand... Show more

Yannis Martin

Yannis Martin

Yannis Martin is an engineer and sociologist by training. With over twenty years of experience supporting digital transformations, he has worked for the past decade as a consultant in project management, cybersecurity governance, and interim management. In 2024, he began doctoral research on the interactions between artificial intelligence, complexity theory, and the humanities and social sciences. His research focuses on AI considered both as a mediating device for human cognition and as a constituent element of complex socio-technical systems. A lecturer at the University of Avignon since 2021, he joined emlyon business school and INSA Lyon in 2025. In 2026, he became a member of the CNRS research group "Internet, AI and Society."

Yannis Martin is an engineer and sociologist by training. With over twenty years of experience supporting digital transformations, he has worked for the past decade as a consultant in project management, cybersecurity governance, and interim manageme... Show more

Marit van Dijk

Marit van Dijk

With over 20 years of software development experience, Marit is passionate about building great software with great people, and making developers’ lives easier.
She regularly presents at international conferences and shares her expertise through webinars, podcasts, blog posts, videos, and tutorials. She's also contributed to the book “97 Things Every Java Programmer Should Know” (O’Reilly Media).

With over 20 years of software development experience, Marit is passionate about building great software with great people, and making developers’ lives easier. She regularly presents at international conferences and shares her expertise through web... Show more

Andrew Bibby

Andrew Bibby

I’m part of the expert team at Proximo 3, a specialist Microsoft consulting firm. We offer consultancy and advice on Dynamics 365 CRM and Power Platform projects. I’m passionate about applying change management to CRM projects and hold a certified Prosci practitioner qualification.

Since 2017, I’ve been a Microsoft Business Applications MVP specialising in Dynamics 365, Power Platform and Copilot Studio.

I’m part of the expert team at Proximo 3, a specialist Microsoft consulting firm. We offer consultancy and advice on Dynamics 365 CRM and Power Platform projects. I’m passionate about applying change management to CRM projects and hold a certified ... Show more

Joseph Guadagno

Joseph Guadagno

Joseph Guadagno is a Senior Vice President of IT, Microsoft Developer Services MVP, and international speaker with more than 25 years of experience leading high‑performing engineering organizations. He specializes in modernizing software delivery, scaling engineering culture, and helping teams adopt AI‑assisted development practices that accelerate innovation.

Joseph has delivered hundreds of sessions across the United States and internationally on .NET, Azure, cloud architecture, engineering leadership, and developer productivity. He is a long‑time community builder—former President and Vice President of the .NET Foundation, founder of the Southeast Valley .NET User Group, and organizer of Desert Code Camp.

He also created MoreSpeakers.com, a mentorship platform that connects new speakers with experienced presenters to grow the next generation of technical storytellers.

Joseph brings a rare blend of executive leadership, hands‑on technical expertise, and community passion to every stage.

Joseph Guadagno is a Senior Vice President of IT, Microsoft Developer Services MVP, and international speaker with more than 25 years of experience leading high‑performing engineering organizations. He specializes in modernizing software delivery, sc... Show more

Gerald Versluis

Gerald Versluis

Meet Gerald Versluis, software engineer at Microsoft, who wields the power of .NET to conquer any project that comes his way. With a career spanning over a decade, he's tackled it all, from frontend to backend and everything in between, using .NET MAUI, Azure, ASP.NET, and all the other .NET goodies. And these days of course; AI and Copilot.

But it wasn't until he discovered the magic of Xamarin that he truly fell in love with mobile and cross-platform development, becoming an active community member and sharing his knowledge through writing, tweeting, and presentations. When he's not saving the world of software, you can find him on Twitter @jfversluis, blogging at https://blog.verslu.is, or making videos on his YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/GeraldVersluis.

Meet Gerald Versluis, software engineer at Microsoft, who wields the power of .NET to conquer any project that comes his way. With a career spanning over a decade, he's tackled it all, from frontend to backend and everything in between, using .NET MA... Show more

Steve Gordon

Steve Gordon

Steve Gordon is a Pluralsight author, 7x Microsoft MVP, and a Principal .NET engineer at Elastic. He is based in the UK. Steve is passionate about community and all things .NET related, having worked with .NET for over 20 years. Steve enjoys sharing his knowledge through his blog, in videos and by presenting talks at user groups and conferences. Steve is excited to participate in the active .NET community and founded .NET South East, a .NET Meetup group based in Brighton. He enjoys contributing to and maintaining OSS projects. You can find Steve online at his blog, www.stevejgordon.co.uk, and on most social media platforms as @stevejgordon.

Steve Gordon is a Pluralsight author, 7x Microsoft MVP, and a Principal .NET engineer at Elastic. He is based in the UK. Steve is passionate about community and all things .NET related, having worked with .NET for over 20 years. Steve enjoys sharing ... Show more

Simon Painter

Simon Painter

I've been working as a .NET developer for over 16 years now in a variety of industries including government, retail and manufacturing. But I've been hacking around with computer code since I was old enough to read my Dad's copy of the ZX Spectrum BASIC coders manual.

I've been speaking about Functional C# at various user groups and conferences around the UK, USA, Europe and Australia and am particularly interested in seeing just how far we can push C# without breaking it.

In 2023 I released my first technical book: "Functional Programming with C#", published by O'Reilly Media.

When I'm not coding, or running after my two small children, I have been known to enjoy the classic series of Doctor Who, Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, Cryptic Crosswords, and rather more coffee than is probably good for me.

I've been working as a .NET developer for over 16 years now in a variety of industries including government, retail and manufacturing. But I've been hacking around with computer code since I was old enough to read my Dad's copy of the ZX Spectrum BAS... Show more

Koen Verbeeck

Koen Verbeeck

Koen Verbeeck is a data professional working at AE. He helps organizations to get insight in their data and to improve their analytics solutions. Koen has over a decade and a half of experience in developing data warehouses, models and reports using the Microsoft data platform. Koen was a Microsoft Data Platform MVP for 8 consecutive years, and 1 year Microsoft Fabric MVP. He has a blog at http://www.sqlkover.com, writes articles for MSSQLTips.com and is a frequent speaker at Microsoft Data Platform events.

Koen Verbeeck is a data professional working at AE. He helps organizations to get insight in their data and to improve their analytics solutions. Koen has over a decade and a half of experience in developing data warehouses, models and reports using ... Show more

Jeff Taylor

Jeff Taylor

Jeff Taylor is a Principal Data Consultant, Microsoft Data Platform MVP, Redgate Community Ambassador, and Octopus Insider with over 28 years of experience specializing in performance tuning and critical data issues. He currently organizes the Jax Data and Day of Data Jacksonville (formerly SQL Saturday) and is a co-organizer of JaxDUG.

Jeff Taylor is a Principal Data Consultant, Microsoft Data Platform MVP, Redgate Community Ambassador, and Octopus Insider with over 28 years of experience specializing in performance tuning and critical data issues. He currently organizes the Jax Da... Show more

Michael Plettner

Michael Plettner

With more than 2 decades of customer experience, a long history in Microsoft products, Michael is a Cloud Architect who enjoys sharing his experience with the community and help the community grow.
During the last years, Michael was working with customers in Microsoft Teams topics, Microsoft 365 implementations overall and since 2022 he's also working with his customers in different Microsoft Viva projects.
Since more than seven years Michael has its own company, working with the focus on Microsoft topics, Change-Management and Project-Management. He's also a Microsoft MVP for Microsoft 365 Apps and Services since 2021.

With more than 2 decades of customer experience, a long history in Microsoft products, Michael is a Cloud Architect who enjoys sharing his experience with the community and help the community grow. During the last years, Michael was working with cus... Show more

Matheus Albuquerque

Matheus Albuquerque

Matheus is a Staff Front-End Engineer at Medallia, building their surveys platform and helping them shape the customer experience market with React and a Google Developer Expert in Web Performance.

His areas of interest include React and its ecosystem, JS and compile-to-JS languages, DX, and perceived performance optimization. Aside from public speaking about these, he also volunteers at TechLabs, teaching front-end development.

Matheus is a Staff Front-End Engineer at Medallia, building their surveys platform and helping them shape the customer experience market with React and a Google Developer Expert in Web Performance. His areas of interest include React and its ecosy... Show more

Obumuneme Nwabude

Obumuneme Nwabude

Obum is a Full-Stack AI, Blockchain, Cloud, Mobile, and Web developer. He has worked with different teams and has professional experiences in architecting and building software solutions. He is a Google Developer Expert (GDE) in the Cloud AI & Dart-Flutter category. He has written several articles on Flutter in various publications and he volunteers in tech communities.

Obum is a Full-Stack AI, Blockchain, Cloud, Mobile, and Web developer. He has worked with different teams and has professional experiences in architecting and building software solutions. He is a Google Developer Expert (GDE) in the Cloud AI & Dart-... Show more

Michael Roth

Michael Roth

Michael Roth has been working as a consultant since 2011 and found his way into the IT around 2015. He focuses on Power Platform Governance, Administration, Security as well as organizational implementation. Coming from an M365 background, he has a holistic view of the entire platform.

Michael Roth has been working as a consultant since 2011 and found his way into the IT around 2015. He focuses on Power Platform Governance, Administration, Security as well as organizational implementation. Coming from an M365 background, he has a h... Show more

Piotr Prus

Piotr Prus

Piotr Prus is a Google Developer Expert for Android and a regular Droidcon/DevFest speaker. His talks and workshops focus on the craft of visual UI on Android: Jetpack Compose, canvas, animations, particle emitters, AGSL shaders, and fluid screen transitions.

Piotr Prus is a Google Developer Expert for Android and a regular Droidcon/DevFest speaker. His talks and workshops focus on the craft of visual UI on Android: Jetpack Compose, canvas, animations, particle emitters, AGSL shaders, and fluid screen tra... Show more

Deborah Melkin

Deborah Melkin

Deborah Melkin has been working as a database professional with SQL Server for over 25 years. She spends her days helping programmers with all aspects of database design, queries, performance, and deployment. In 2016, she began her blog, Deb the DBA. Soon after that, she began speaking at SQL Saturdays and user groups.

Deborah was an IDERA ACE Class of 2020, "One To Watch" as part of a #Redgate100 in 2022, and as well as the winner of Speaker Idol at PASS Summit in 2019. She is a former board member of the New England SQL Server User group (NESQL) and a former member of the Azure Data Community Advisory Council.

Deborah is a co-founder of WITspiration and a co-leader of the Data Platform WIT (Women in Tech) user group. She is also a Redgate Community Ambassador and she has been a Microsoft MVP for the Data Platform since November 2020.

In her spare time, Deborah can usually be found doing something musical or something geeky with her husband, Andy, and their dog, Sebastian.

Deborah Melkin has been working as a database professional with SQL Server for over 25 years. She spends her days helping programmers with all aspects of database design, queries, performance, and deployment. In 2016, she began her blog, Deb the DBA.... Show more

Anna-Maria Wykes

Anna-Maria Wykes

Anna is a veteran software and data engineer, boasting over 19 years of experience. She has undertaken various projects, including real-time analytics with Scala and Kafka, constructing Data Lakes with Spark, and applying engineering to Data Science. Anna currently serves as a RSA (Resident Solution Architect) and consultant. With a genuine passion for data, she endeavors to bridge the gap between Software Development and Data Science. Anna's other areas of interest include DevOps (DataOps, MLOps, LLMOps), Agile methodologies, and organizing or participating in local Code Clubs.

Anna is a veteran software and data engineer, boasting over 19 years of experience. She has undertaken various projects, including real-time analytics with Scala and Kafka, constructing Data Lakes with Spark, and applying engineering to Data Science.... Show more

Kateryna Hrytsaienko

Kateryna Hrytsaienko

Hi there, nice to meet you! I’m Kateryna 👋

I’m a Senior Software Engineer, Security Champion, and MLOps stan. My mission? De-gatekeeping machine learning operations and making them actually accessible for every developer. After playing the field with Azure and AWS, I’ve officially caught feelings for GCP☁️✨

When I’m not deep in the codebase, I’m leading GDG Kyiv, repping as a Women Techmakers Ambassador, or lecturing at KPI and KSE. Whether I’m helping students ship production-ready Java/Spring Boot architectures or dropping deep dives on Medium(https://medium.com/@ekatereanagricaenko), I’m here for the community, the mentorship, and the "more is more" approach to impact 🚀🔥

Hi there, nice to meet you! I’m Kateryna 👋 I’m a Senior Software Engineer, Security Champion, and MLOps stan. My mission? De-gatekeeping machine learning operations and making them actually accessible for every developer. After playing the field ... Show more

Saeid Dahl

Saeid Dahl

Saeid Dahl is a Microsoft Azure and AI MVP, Microsoft Learn Learning Expert, Microsoft Certified Trainer, international speaker, and community leader with more than 18 years of experience in the IT industry.

He is currently Head of Public Cloud and AI at Upheads, where he leads cloud and AI strategy, solution architecture, technical enablement, and team development. His work focuses on Microsoft technologies, especially Azure, Azure Arc, automation, hybrid cloud, cloud adoption, infrastructure modernization, and AI-driven solutions.

Saeid is also an active leader in the Microsoft community. He serves as a board member of Microsoft Zero To Hero, MSFarsi, and Global Azure, helping foster learning, collaboration, and knowledge-sharing across a growing network of more than 7,000 members.

Recognized for his strong expertise in PowerShell, automation, integration, and Azure architecture, Saeid helps organizations design scalable, secure, and practical cloud solutions. His experience spans Azure design, cloud adoption strategy, hybrid and multi-cloud environments, enterprise-scale architecture, governance, security, and operational excellence.

With a genuine passion for sharing knowledge, Saeid regularly speaks at conferences, community events, and technical sessions. He is committed to mentoring professionals, empowering communities, and helping individuals and organizations make better use of Microsoft cloud and AI technologies.

Through continuous learning, hands-on experience, and active community contribution, Saeid Dahl brings a practical, people-focused approach to technology, innovation, and cloud transformation.

Saeid Dahl is a Microsoft Azure and AI MVP, Microsoft Learn Learning Expert, Microsoft Certified Trainer, international speaker, and community leader with more than 18 years of experience in the IT industry. He is currently Head of Public Cloud an... Show more

Heini Ilmarinen

Heini Ilmarinen

Heini is a math teacher turned Azure expert. With her background in mathematics and teaching, she has a great passion for problem solving, simplifying complex things and a unique approach to architectures.
She is a Co-founder at Bruvo and a Data Platform MVP, specializing in Azure infrastructure and the data platform. She has been working with customers large and small for the past several years to help them sort out their path to the cloud and make sense of their architecture - both hybrid and cloud. She has worked extensively with both Azure infrastructure and analytics solutions, and makes the most of this skillset in her projects, as well as while speaking. On her free time Heini spends time in the nature, either snowboarding or mountain biking, depending on the season.

Heini is a math teacher turned Azure expert. With her background in mathematics and teaching, she has a great passion for problem solving, simplifying complex things and a unique approach to architectures. She is a Co-founder at Bruvo and a Data Pla... Show more

Reitse Eskens

Reitse Eskens

Reitse began his computer days with GW Basic and quickly followed with Windows 3.11. After that, many computers followed, and, interrupted by human resource and psychology studies, he got into the IT work field around 2007. There, he encountered Oracle 9, which had a command line from 1980. At his current job, he met SQL Server. And loved it. Now he’s working with SQL 2008 to SQL 2019 on-premises and several Azure SQL Databases, supporting customers and tuning databases. New projects focus more on the Azure data platform as an architect, security advisor and data engineer. They include Fabric (Lakehouse and Realtime solutions), Data Factory and Synapse Analytics.

Reitse began his computer days with GW Basic and quickly followed with Windows 3.11. After that, many computers followed, and, interrupted by human resource and psychology studies, he got into the IT work field around 2007. There, he encountered Orac... Show more

Chris DeMars

Chris DeMars

Chris DeMars is a Senior Developer Advocate with over 20 years of technical experience. He speaks all over the world on web accessibility, feature flags, A/B testing, and CSS. For his community contributions, he holds awards as a Progress Champion and former Microsoft MVP, Google Developer Expert, Cloudinary Media Developer Expert, and Auth0 Ambassador. When he is not working on making the web great and accessible you can find him fishing, on the paintball field, rating Detroit Style pizza, and looking for UFO's.

Chris DeMars is a Senior Developer Advocate with over 20 years of technical experience. He speaks all over the world on web accessibility, feature flags, A/B testing, and CSS. For his community contributions, he holds awards as a Progress Champion an... Show more

Prathap Reddy

Prathap Reddy

Prathap Reddy Chenchappagari
Prathap Reddy Chenchappagari is a Microsoft AI MVP and Agentic AI Consultant specializing in Microsoft stack, Copilot Studio, Microsoft Foundry, and enterprise AI solutions.
He works on designing and building AI agents and multi-agent systems that solve real-world business problems using both low-code and pro-code approaches. His areas of expertise include Agentic AI, AI Agents, Microsoft Foundry, Copilot Studio, Microsoft 365 Copilot, Azure AI, RAG, AI orchestration, and enterprise automation.
Prathap is also the founder of Innovation Tech Community, where he organizes and delivers AI-focused technical sessions, workshops, and community events for developers, architects, and technology professionals.
I regularly speaks about Agentic AI, AI Agents, Microsoft Copilot, Microsoft Foundry, Copilot Studio, and the future of enterprise AI. He focuses on practical, hands-on learning and real-world implementation rather than purely theoretical concepts.

Prathap Reddy Chenchappagari Prathap Reddy Chenchappagari is a Microsoft AI MVP and Agentic AI Consultant specializing in Microsoft stack, Copilot Studio, Microsoft Foundry, and enterprise AI solutions. He works on designing and building AI agents ... Show more

Jochen Kirstätter

Jochen Kirstätter

Although living on a tropical island, Jochen Kirstätter is a business owner and entrepreneur in different industry sectors. Mainly operating in the development of tailor-made software solutions since more than 20 years, he is also venturing into the world of cloud computing. You can either meet him at the regular meetups of the Mauritius Software Craftsmanship Community or reach him on X and Mastodon: @JKirstaetter.

Jochen is a Google Developer Expert (GDE) for Google Cloud and a Microsoft Most Valuable Programmer (MVP) for Developer Technologies for several years. He founded the now largest IT community in Mauritius, and organises the annual Developers Conference. Following his interest in cross-platform technologies he is also an organiser of the Google Developer Group (GDG) Mauritius.

Although living on a tropical island, Jochen Kirstätter is a business owner and entrepreneur in different industry sectors. Mainly operating in the development of tailor-made software solutions since more than 20 years, he is also venturing into the ... Show more

Thorsten Pickhan

Thorsten Pickhan

Thorsten Pickhan works at Microsoft and has been focused on Microsoft 365, Microsoft Teams, Teams Phone, and Copilot for many years. As a speaker, blogger, YouTuber, and community advocate, he regularly shares his knowledge at conferences, user groups, and through his blog and YouTube channel.

From 2021 to 2025, he was honored as a Microsoft MVP in recognition of his contributions to the Microsoft community, particularly in the areas of Microsoft Teams and Copilot. After joining Microsoft, he retired the MVP title in accordance with the program requirements.

His areas of expertise include modern collaboration, communication solutions, and the productive use of AI within the Microsoft 365 ecosystem.

Thorsten Pickhan works at Microsoft and has been focused on Microsoft 365, Microsoft Teams, Teams Phone, and Copilot for many years. As a speaker, blogger, YouTuber, and community advocate, he regularly shares his knowledge at conferences, user group... Show more

Nicole Enders

Nicole Enders

Nicole Enders, aka “Die Agentin”, is a software architect, consultant, developer, and Microsoft MVP. Her mission is to make complex technology accessible and share knowledge. She focuses on Agentic AI, Microsoft Foundry, Copilot Studio, Azure, and Microsoft 365, combining technical depth with practical experience, curiosity, and enthusiasm.

Nicole Enders, aka “Die Agentin”, is a software architect, consultant, developer, and Microsoft MVP. Her mission is to make complex technology accessible and share knowledge. She focuses on Agentic AI, Microsoft Foundry, Copilot Studio, Azure, and Mi... Show more

Gregor Reimling

Gregor Reimling

Gregor Reimling is a Microsoft MVP in Azure and Security, and Chief Azure Technologist at adesso SE. He leads technical strategy and implementation for Azure, focusing on enterprise-scale architectures, cloud security, governance, hybrid environments, and migration.
Gregor is a passionate community advocate, regularly speaking at international Microsoft and community conferences. He runs a popular Azure blog and co-hosts the Cloud Inspires podcast. He is the founder of the Azure Bonn Meetup, a thriving user group with over 1,000 members, and co-founder of the Cloud Identity Summit, an annual event focused on identity and security.
As a Microsoft Certified Trainer, Gregor empowers professionals through hands-on training and mentorship, helping organisations maximise their cloud potential.

Gregor Reimling is a Microsoft MVP in Azure and Security, and Chief Azure Technologist at adesso SE. He leads technical strategy and implementation for Azure, focusing on enterprise-scale architectures, cloud security, governance, hybrid environments... Show more

Daniel Oh

Daniel Oh

Java Champion, CNCF Ambassador & TAG DevEX Co-Chair, Microsoft MVP, Developer Advocate, Technical Marketing, Keynote Speaker, Published Author

Java Champion, CNCF Ambassador & TAG DevEX Co-Chair, Microsoft MVP, Developer Advocate, Technical Marketing, Keynote Speaker, Published Author Show more

Massimo Bonanni

Massimo Bonanni

Massimo Bonanni is a Senior Technical Trainer, international speaker, and community leader passionate about Azure and developer technologies. A six-time Microsoft MVP in Windows and Developer Tools, as well as an Intel Black Belt and Software Innovator, he has delivered more than 200 technical sessions over the last decade. He loves turning complex topics into clear, practical, and engaging learning experiences — ideally with demos, real-world examples, and at least one nerdy joke. When he is off stage, you will likely find him reading or building LEGO sets.

Massimo Bonanni is a Senior Technical Trainer, international speaker, and community leader passionate about Azure and developer technologies. A six-time Microsoft MVP in Windows and Developer Tools, as well as an Intel Black Belt and Software Innovat... Show more

Please note that Sessionize is not responsible for the accuracy or validity of the data provided by speakers.

Most Active Speakers 2023

Every year, we put together a list of the most active speakers. This list features the top 3% of speakers who have participated in events using Sessionize during the 2023.

The 3% is calculated from the pool of all speakers that have at least one accepted session in year 2023. We don't include inactive speakers or speakers that had no accepted sessions during the year. There are around 25 thousand unique accepted speakers this year, the 3% is 771. Not all of them have their speaker profiles set as public, and we respect that, so the list doesn't show all of them.

The calculation is based on the number of accepted events, that's the main criteria, but to get more refined results we also look at things like multiple sessions per event, sharing a session with a co-speaker and how big the event is. Number of submissions and declined sessions don't affect the list.

Please note that the count of events and sessions in this list does not represent the number of events and sessions from the year 2023. Instead, it shows the number of events and sessions featured on the speaker's public speaker profile; these numbers have nothing to do with the award itself.